Speakers: Sue Hardwick, Co-Founder, Global Women in PR; Melissa Arulappan, Head of Corporate Communications, IQVIA; Anna Gefert, Managing Director, HERA Communication Strategies; Heather Kernahan, CEO, Hotwire
Angela
In this new hybrid working environment, what can we do to accelerate the pace of change? So, we’re doing a hybrid event of course here. So, hybrid discussion. So, for the ladies in the room that are here, if they could come up to the stage, and hopefully we can get Melissa from India and Moliehi from South Africa. There they are excellent. And I shall hand over to Sue Hardwick, who is the co-founder of global women in PR. Thank you.
Sue
Thank you, Angela. Those statistics make for some grim reading. And I really hope that we can, in a short amount of time that we have start to look at some of the issues that perhaps we can address to ensure that we’re not sitting here in 12 months’ time with our fourth annual index saying the balance has gotten worse. We’ve had a very difficult time through COVID. But what it has enabled, as those statistics show, is that flexible working has become a part of what we do as professionals and in our industry, it has worked very well. However, there have been such huge issues with parental control and how that works that we need to address some of those issues. What we aim to do today is to look at some questions and perhaps try and see some solutions as to what we might be doing going forward. First of all, the panel that we have represents my cross section. We have Melissa who’s in India, we have Heather, whom you’ve seen yesterday from the States, we have Anna who runs our group in the UK. And now Moliehi I’m not sure I’m pronouncing your name correctly, so forgive me, who’s managing director of Magna Carta agency in South Africa. I think what I’d like to start with is the issue of parenting and how that clearly has an impact on the number of women taking on senior leadership roles. When we look at maternity leave, and paternity leave, there’s a huge difference in the balance of men actually taking a lead role in raising a family. So I wonder if that’s an issue that you feel that should be addressed in a much more forcible way so that we start to create a better environment, because without that better environment, we’re still going to have women doing as Angela said, the double shifts in terms of taking care of the family. Perhaps Heather, if I could start with you in terms of your view on how this works. I know in America it’s similar to hear that paternity leave is a tick box, but very few men actually take the time to take that time off because they fear for their careers.
Heather
They do and when I had my first child I was in Canada, very different policy in Canada, there’s a year that either parent can take in as in terms of leave, and I loved my job so much. When I had my daughter I said to my husband, I feel like I’m trapped. Let me back to work. We’ve got to change it up. So, I did the first three months at home and then my husband did nine months at home with our daughter. And now those kinds of social programmes do allow for a more equitable split at least a conversation to happen. And corporations really have not kept up. Some of them have very light policies, but they’re really, they’re not putting in place the procedures needed and even talking about promoting parental leave equal parental leave policies. I think that’s part of it, to have the discussion going. And you know, from there, my husband had such a good experience. He stayed home with our children, and my daughter’s seventeen. So, it’s been my entire career I’ve had my husband at home and in many ways, that’s been able to allow me to accelerate my career journey. Companies do it as a tick box, but I think it comes back to the promotion celebration and leadership taking it because if you see someone taking it then you feel like it’s okay for me to Yeah, me us. We don’t see that as much.
Sue
Sadly, not here either. Anna talking about the UK, your experience in that respect, also as a mother and having to juggle everything.
Anna
Yeah, I mean, I think it is a shame that I don’t think that men feel that they can take the time off in the same way. I love that example about Canada and so forward thinking I’d love to see something like that over here because I mean, I was quite similar. I think I lost a lot of my identity when I was on maternity leave, and I just wanted to get back to work. But everyone convinced me that I needed to stay at home for a year and enjoy the year of paternity leave. And I don’t think you know; we’re not all programmed the same. We’re all very different people. So, I think you need to have a system that flexes with the people that are, you know, building these families. And ultimately, that’s the reason I started my business is because I didn’t feel like I could have had both in an agency world. You know, I was working on a very corporate and financial side. And I just didn’t see a way forward for me to have two small children and my career so I built a world that I could, I could control.
Sue
That’s so true. There are so many women who get to “having a family” and they realise that the culture is not commensurate with what they want to do. They are professionally challenged in that respect. So, they leave and they either choose to do something else, or they set up or they go freelance, which is not a great move. For the businesses who require senior women to stay in our industry and take on those leadership roles. And if we are discouraging that then we are not enabling businesses to succeed in the way that they should. Melissa from your viewpoint, how important is parental leave and that issue being in career development in India for women?
Melissa
Think it’s relatively new as far as India goes. But having said that, I do believe that we’ve got to kind of deepen the pool. At the table. Celebrate men who do take paternity leave, you know, and encourage them to do so because I do sense a certain amount of hesitancy and fear and wanting to avail of that lead and honestly, if you look at again, I’ve tracked some of these pictures in the last year or so. of men who’ve been working from home and most of photographs around you know, carrying responsibilities or having fun with the children. Whereas if you look at the kind of photographs women post, it’s all about, you know, bringing them and cooking at home and taking care of bathing them and stuff like that. So, I think we’ve got to have conversations that go beyond just taking the parents leave or the paternity leave. What do you do? How do you support and contribute? And we’ve got to celebrate some of that.
Sue
Moliehi in South Africa, how has that manifested itself in terms of the balance and women moving away from the industry rather than staying when they have a family?
Moliehi
Speaking from experience, I worked in a woman led business and when I hit my children, we actually did not have you know, maternity pay, so that basically you go into go and have a baby, but you have the anxiety of an income what is going to happen because in that four month instead of in certain companies the maternity leave is performance. You don’t have any income coming through. So already, we are going through a physical wall of anxiety. I’m going to be replaced because they’re the same thing. Somebody who’s going to take over my work. Secondly, I’m not actually bonding with this child because I’ve got this worry about my work. What are they going to eat and also the cultural one my work as a woman is to look after the child is to look after the home and there isn’t in many households in many families there is no support, you know from a male partner? So, you find that we deal with a lot of challenges. And at the same time, you’re able to give the love that you’re supposed to this new-born child. So, I think in an effort to try and to really to build a healthy society, these are some of the cultural biases that we need to work on. These are the kind of you know, we need to bring education back in terms of how we support women during this critical time of life because it’s supposed to be a loving time, supposed to be a time where you’re enjoying yourself, the woman you’re bringing new life into the world. So, the support structure from the work environment to the home is really critical. And I think the more we do and demote, speak about these things, and women become open about the emotional trauma that they go through, when they’re going through this time will really help the future generation.
Sue
Yes, I think leading by example, and I know in Sweden, for example, that they have to persuade more women to take leave when they’re having a family. They have no problem at all with fathers being delighted to take the time out. And also, there’s lots of commitment to that being part of the workplace and it’s become an inherent part of the culture. So, it can happen, and it can work. We just need to ensure that it happens on a much bigger scale, and that it’s taken seriously. I think it’s something that’s very clearly there to say yes, we offer it but there needs to be a lot more done to ensure that it’s part of the practice and that it’s essential that we get a better balance in that respect. Otherwise, we’re just not going to get a better balance in the boardroom. Another question I want to look at is what steps we think aside clearly, apart from getting a better balance in terms of parental leave, and the culture of accepting that both parents have an equal role to play is do we need to put in place flexible working arrangements that that allows us to not have a 24/7 work culture, but as Angela said, just now leads to burnout and stress. Again, two things that are clearly affecting women in the workplace. What steps can organisations take to ensure that this isn’t perpetuated post pandemic and also, particularly now that most assume that they’re going to be working from home at least two days if not three days a week? What impact can we do in organisations to stop that getting worse and indeed reverse the trend? Heather, can I start with you?
Heather
Sure. I have so much to say with the talent crunch that’s happening right now in every country around the world that has communications as an industry. This is going to be the pressure that organisations need, honestly, you know, I in the US, I’m the chair of the PR Council, and we have hundreds of agencies that we talk to every single month as part of that. And I do see there’s a body of agency leaders who say I just can’t wait to get back to the way it used to be, you know, just I’m desperate for that. I know how to work in that environment. Everyone’s coming back. That’s the way it’s going to be. And the talent in the industry is telling us absolutely not, that’s not the way it’s going to be. So, we have to think as innovation leaders, both from a leadership point of view, but also from an individual point of view, and I want to talk about the responsibility of both because leaders do need to think that being flexible doesn’t mean not being flexible doesn’t mean that they won’t have a culture. Flexibility is a new thing we’re creating together. So, we have an opportunity as leaders to create something new and I have to be open to exploring other ways of working that I wasn’t in the past. And I think talent needs to come forward and say, this is what I’m thinking, will this work for us? How do we co create some different solutions? So, things that I see really working are people in my business saying, I’ve got to take it down to part time because I want to go take training then I want to come back full time and bring those skills to the business. Okay, how do we make that happen? That sounds great. Or I need to be off every Friday because my children are doing this or that, okay, I don’t want to lose you. Why wouldn’t I have that conversation? And so that’s what innovation leaders will do. They will start to listen in a different way, but I also think people need to share what will work for them, because I’m not a mind reader. And so, I don’t know what’s going on for individuals. And unless you create a space where it’s safe to talk about those kinds of topics, people won’t bring it forward. See, that’s what I think you really have to be open to that innovative solution. Thinking.
Sue
I agree and, and interestingly, what I think COVID has brought us is the opportunity to take a blank sheet of paper and start again, in many ways because the experience has been so dramatic. The opportunities for working have changed so dramatically, that if we don’t seize this opportunity. We’re very foolish as leaders, we have to look at what we can do now to move the dial to actually listen to what our teams require to put in place measures that will help them achieve that and listening and reshaping. It’s just such a golden opportunity to do something really positive. Anna you’ve taken the step and started your own business
Anna
But you know that is just such a huge topic, I think because we’re all still finding our way in the dark because it is such a new territory. And I think the problem with the kind of enforced homeworking I don’t really think it’s flexible working, what we’ve just been through it was enforced home working rather than being flexible, but I think that whole period allowed us to blur those boundaries between home and work and you’ve seen the burnout statistics in the survey and it’s been very commonly referred to across the industry that there needs to be the boundaries put in place and, you know, you see in countries like Portugal recently and put in a ban that you can’t email after certain hours talking about it and things like this, and, and I’ve had lots of conversations with a whole range of people about how you can put these boundaries in place. And I think you have to have flexible boundaries because at the end of the day, you know, I’m a working parent, I have to basically clock off at around six 630 do the whole thing. And then I’ll clock back on at about eight o’clock. And those are people who go for classes that you know going to the gym, whatever it is, and then they’ll clock back in. So, if you say you cannot email your team after seven o’clock, then it’s like well hang on a minute. I needed to do this stuff and say that’s inflexible in this new flexible world. So, I think there needs to be a dialogue. There needs to be a conversation. You need to be able to set these expectations and yes, I can send an email to my team at nine but maybe in the email, I’ll just say please do not action until your working day begins. You know, it’s very simple. You just need to have that honest conversation with people. And I think when we start kind of talking to each other and figuring it out together, as you say leaders need to have that open dialogue. Then I think we’ll work to get more work away through it together as well.
Sue
Yes, I think conversations are clearly key to this and it’s hearing from your team, many of whom have worked in tiny spaces in a bubble where it’s very difficult. They don’t want to be at home. They absolutely relish the water cooler moments. They absolutely relish being in an office away from all the constraints of perhaps having to share an internet single with three other people in a crowded flat share. So, we can’t assume everybody is keen to want to be at home. They don’t many are delighted to have a workspace and colleagues. However, it’s about the balance and about this 24/7 And what steps we need to take to address both sides of the coin. Melissa from your perspective in terms of putting in place steps to address flexibility and in office working to make sure that we don’t lose the drive for change.
Melissa
Yep, so when you know, it was kind of mentioned and discussed earlier, we can talk about setting mutual expectations and group norms, providing the right kind of technology and tools and you know, leaders and managers leading by example sharing best practices training on work like boundary management, regular check ins, and all of these, which we probably need to institutionalise, but I want to address some more fundamental issue which has also been alluded to earlier, which I don’t really honestly believe it’s really all about flexible work. Many of us worked in a flexi work environment before the pandemic and we cannot do a lift and shift. What I see happening is a lot of the same policies and processes and everything is just being brought into the pandemic environment. We’ve got to go beyond and as you said, employees are working at home suddenly, in an environment where they have children studying when they have in laws vying for their attention where they don’t have enough space. How do we create enabling policies for home-based environments? And I think once we look at it as a home base, as opposed to flexible work, a lot of things will change. I mean, how do we set up employees with access, whether it is offering them co working spaces of the neighbourhood that they could pull out, you know, for an hour or two or a few hours every week? Or how do we introduce more childcare? Policies, you know, to take care of the children that are at home, and I think that’s what we really need to look at more than just you know, flexible policies are enabling policies, rock home environment or situation.
Sue
Yes, I think that’s true because as I said, there are many who struggle and setting up regional localised workspaces, the flexibility that started previously with companies taking flexible working spaces, to actually make that more local and to provide a couple of hours respite and easy access is something I think that’s being trialed. So maybe that’s an initiative that will grow and support those who want to be closer to home and need to be at home to do more and have that interaction as well. Moliehi, your view on how this might work in terms of across the African continent and how that has been perceived.
Moliehi
I think the issue of flexibility is quite important, across the continent COVID resources to really operate in a way that we never have done before. And this actually challenged a lot of our clients where they, you know, physical meetings were the order of the day. With what happened globally. We now have to adapt to ways of engaging and as we are seeing, you know, a lot of companies putting measures in place to adopt this flexible work and to protect the police. I think what we are failing to do in the pier in the street is also to protect our challenge against our clients, being able to share our policies with our tribe so that there is not this expectation of just because you’re working remotely, you may not be actually completely working for apple into their bleed hours, you’re not seeing Billy autocue. So, it’s quite important that total communication was brought in. We are able to have an understanding that protects our challenge because you find that the abuse at times does not come from the agency itself. It comes from clients in us as leaders if we could be able to actually provide that buffer and be able to really engage the client in terms of how to help take care of our talent so we can be able to deliver the best work especially on our female staff is going to be something that we need to really take seriously because the way I look has increased, not just from a business point of view, household responsibilities that increased on them. Most of them now had to also be teachers for the children at home. So, there’s a lot of relying on them. And to be able to really get the support from the employers is very important. So those boundaries that Aliah Phillips was tweeting about are very important that they need to be set up and we need to honour them.
Sue
Indeed, it’s very important. One issue that’s often mentioned, and sort of gets knocked back again, and looking at those statistics that Angela read out. Maybe it’s time we need to look at it again. Should organisations have a quota for the number of women in the boardroom? I mean, this is really becoming quite a divisive issue, and there are strong views on either side. I asked it because the three years we’ve been still saying the boardroom is 64/36. It wavers, but the PR industry is populated by women who are very good at it. Should we have a quota? Is a quota system one way of helping to address this issue in a perhaps a more dictatorial way? I don’t know. I don’t have the answer. But I don’t know how you view it.
Heather
I hadn’t even thought about a quota system before. Sure. I mean, I was trying to think back to the time when I realised I could be a CEO because you know, growing up, I was in communications. And then when I got into a global tech company, I saw that it was the Chief Marketing Officer, not the chief communications officer who was in with the CEO. And to me that was a signal like Oh, marketing is there’s a hierarchy here, right? So, I said OKAY, I don’t know how to be a CMO. But I should do that because I want to be with the CEO making decisions. So I needed to go back to school and I did my masters and I started it when I had my daughter who was I think four at the time and then went back to school weekends and got pregnant while I was doing my masters and had my son during that period of time and it took me a long time to get my Master’s about six years going on the weekends. And as I was finishing up my master’s, I had a finance professor talking about something and said, okay, when you’re the CEO of a company, here are the things you want to look at. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, why are you here if you’re not trying to be a CEO, and I said I could be a CEO and he goes, Heather, yes, that’s why you’re here training. It literally had never crossed my mind that that was something that I could aspire to. And so, I think there needs to be a discussion like an active discussion with women early in their career about the options that are available. I consider it my personal responsibility to have that conversation with my businesswomen outside my business to say, let’s look at all of the career options for you and what the pros and cons are a beach and what you might have to do to get there. And you need someone in your life to sort of smack you in the face sometimes and open up your eyes to something. So, I don’t think as much as quotas, but I think about the leaders in our industry who have moved into these positions, taking time and personal care. And then also I feel like I have a responsibility to speak at events to be interviewed. I’m writing a book not because I love the process of writing a book, but because I think we need to show other women coming up. You can do this. Here’s how you do it. Let’s do it. Together. I’ll show you how. So, I can’t answer the quota question. But that’s how I think about how do we grow women leaders up? And there’s also a lot of research that women leaders or women earlier in their career maybe won’t take the opportunity they won’t apply for a job if they’re, you know, not more than qualified. And I think it’s also our responsibility to go to those women and say, you’re ready, you might not feel ready, but it is time for you to try this and to help them have the confidence to step into something new.
Sue
I do think that’s very important. And it’s about encouraging the next generation and part of what we’re doing with the mentoring scheme is to actually encourage women who are looking at taking on more senior leadership roles and giving them the skills that they need, as in Singapore that is putting together a series of career pathway opportunities for women to tap into. If you ask them, ask a man could he go for getting this job and he may not have all the requirements? The answer is very simply, yes, he can. And yes, you will you’re schooling and say, well actually, I think I probably need to do X, Y and Zed and then I might be ready. There is a difference. And it’s a difference of approach. And we need to encourage women to believe that actually yes, of course they can do it. They’ve been successful in careers, women running businesses, and a lot more women are doing so but you know, it’s how we make that happen. And does the quota system work or not Anna?
Anna
Well, I can answer. Well, I can attempt to answer the quota system question. I mean, I personally think that even the term quota is a pretty unattractive word and I think it is a necessary evil. But I don’t think that it’s actually very productive in many cases and can actually be unproductive in the advancement of certain areas. And I think this is one of those areas. So, if you look at where we’ve come from, the FTSE 250 and the FTSE 100 Now have a third of women on their boards. The FTSE 100 Did that a year ahead of schedule, I think it was and the FTSE 250 Did it bang on, so you know, we have come a long way. There’s obviously a lot more room to go and we need that evolution, but it does need to be an evolution. I believe that this kind of big fundamental social change within our corporate structures needs to happen over a period of time. It doesn’t, it won’t respond well to shock treatments the markets never do. So, you know, it has to happen over a gradual time. And I think one of the fundamental issues that we’ve got at the moment is that and it’s one of communication. You know, we are not communicating to the CEOs and the C suites of these businesses, the benefits that a diverse board will bring to their business. And there are just countless ways of demonstrating this whether you’re looking at the profit, the turnover, the Glassdoor reviews you know, come on, customers are satisfied, NPS scores or internal employee engagement and satisfaction. You know, you can pick up all of these metrics and you can look at what makes a company great, and what does their board look like and how is that board impacting how great that company is? And I guarantee you the ones with diverse boards will have really high scores because it’s a no brainer. Of course, having a diverse board and having lots of great minds around that table will impact the business positively. But the people that sit at that table deserve a place at that table and they should get there by merit, not by quota.
Sue
I agree that merit is the key. And it’s encouraging companies to understand as you say, all the research indicates that businesses that have a diverse board and a balanced board are more profitable. So, it’s not about “it’s not fair”. That’s not the argument, the argument is that if we want to run successful businesses, we need to have a balance, and that’s absolutely critical, Melissa.
Melissa
Yeah, I completely agree that it should be based on merit. And I’m not one supporter, but in a situation that we see increasingly so where women are hopelessly unrepresentative, and underrepresented. It might be coached to look at a quota even if that means having at least a few women. However, having said that, I can tell you experience in India where we were all listed companies to have one woman on board has shown that it’s tokenism that you know, invariably a family member is inducted or a woman irrespective of experience and ability to serve on the board is brought on. So, it’s a very difficult challenge I think we’re faced with, but I think it’s equally important, as Heather said, to create those career paths or remote positions, or women as an aspiration. We don’t see that happening and you know, having done programmes over here with another organisation that I’m a member of and even within my own organisation where I’ve invited women on boards to talk to women about what career paths to boards look like. I think it’s been fascinating those discussions and it helps women kind of, you know, prepare themselves for those kinds of career paths. We don’t do too much offside, definitely thinking a lot more on, you know, defining these board positions for women and what that looks like and what is required really to attain a bonus.
Moliehi
I think from my perspective, you know, this is just pushing a quota. It’s important to actually have the desire and willingness for diversity. You know, if your business does not see the value that a diverse workforce brings with every sport brings, then you literally oppression women, integral hostile environment, with things will be done to just to undermine them that their voices will not be heard that they will have to go against a lot of challenges where you’d have meetings that are set up at ungodly hours knowing that as women you will not be able to participate because of other commitments that you have. That if an organisation or business realises the value that women brings, you know, and that you can actually be a competitive force out there, then it’s a different way of looking at it because if anything is forced, then you will actually meet up with a lot of challenges and that will not be fair on the women that have been put forward. Because also you need to look at what kind of support those men have been given. You know, do they have people that they can actually look up to the mentors that actually they can engage and speak to who can let it help navigate them through this journey because also just sitting on the board for the sake of members does not actually add anything you need to make sure that you are sitting there because you are bringing you know, something to the table and that your board members, your fellowship board members actually going to listen to you. They were going to, you know, appreciate the input that you’re bringing. So, we also need to be careful of just, you know, doing quarters for the sake of quarters, but it has to actually serve a purpose. What is the purpose of us pushing for that?
Heather
And I just add to bringing it back to the parent conversation earlier and having families it’s a question that I don’t get asked often about, but some a few people have. They said, I don’t think I want to do that job because I think I wouldn’t be able to manage my life. And so, I could never aspire to the CEO position because I think there’s an assumption about what that looks like in terms of work and travel and all of it. And so, I think as women in leadership positions, CEO positions, I know I could do more to talk about that. This is what my life actually looks like. This is how I think about my health. This is how I think about spending time with my family. Here are the trade-offs if you want this big job. But also, here’s what’s great about it, because sometimes I think there’s an assumption that there’s an accumulation of responsibilities as you get to the top. In fact, it’s a very different job than when you are running a practice and running a CEO position. And so, we need to talk about the scope of the job and how it fits. With life and how it can be so fulfilling, and it can fit in with your entire life.
Sue
I think demonstrating that you can have a family that you can run an organisation and I think it’s incumbent on CEOs to actually demonstrate that to show that they go to a parents evening to get up and leave at three o’clock in the afternoon so that the rest of the team can see that they’re doing it so it’s okay for them to do it. To look at practically demonstrating the differences that that can be made and that you can if you like habit or you can balance family life and be successful. And I agree with you if you fail something, people rail against it, and the women who’ve gone before are not going to be viewed in quite the same way which is which is not what we want to achieve. I think if anything that COVID has taught us to have a bigger dialogue to actually examine things that we really had put on the backburner and that we’ve been forced to look at flexible working, forced working if you like flexibility doesn’t equate to having a tiny space in a crowded in a crowded flat share it doesn’t flexibility is about being able to agree hours if you’re a better able to work from midday until midnight, and that can be a good thing for the business in our 24 hour news society then that should be encouraged to so I think it’s as we’ve all said about dialogue about leading by example, about encouragement and mentoring and for leaders to demonstrate that it’s okay to have a family and be successful and yes, you take the time out to do it. But you demonstrate that that’s what you’re doing. I think we are running out of time. So, can I ask each of you for one thing that you’d like to offer or to take on board to do in the next 12 months to help towards changing the dial so that perhaps we don’t end up saying that it’s 60/40 and we still have the same issues? What thing would you like to see happen or what would you like to do to make things change?
Heather
I just thought of one because as I said earlier, it’s a I feel a personal responsibility for me to talk about how do you take the top spot but I’m going to do more to reach out to other industry CEOs and challenge them to have those conversations as well, especially the men CEOs to talk about talent development and from their business, haven’t done them.
Anna
I think it’s really important to demonstrate that you can sit on the board. You know, I’m a board member. I’m a board member of the charity, based in London. I know a lot of people in my industry have board members as well. You don’t have to be a certain age. You don’t have to be a certain gender. You can do it whenever you like. And a lot of charities are calling out for communication professionals to sit on their boards because they often have a communication issue. And so we’re going to be setting out a whole load of events early next year working with different organisations, such as women on boards, and we want to work with their 2% club to try and encourage our members that women in PR to get on boards because I think it’s a hugely fulfilling experience and especially as someone that runs a business as well. It’s great to see the inner workings of another business and how it all kind of knits together and I think it’s yeah, it could only do positive things for your career.
Melissa
It’s something that I’ve already started working on through GWPR India, which is really to bring the HR fraternity across agencies together to have discussions on how we can really progress women in the industry. I think they need to be part of the solution.
Moliehi
I think the most important thing for me is to really expose my fellow, you know, ladies at work, especially to the various levels of leadership. Sometimes we take it upon ourselves to say you know, you see, that’s your role, you must do a whole lot of things by yourself instead of exposure and getting people in to look in what takes to actually to run a business to be able to be sitting in those meetings where you are discussing deals in the library business such as exposure because sometimes people don’t aspire to your position because they don’t know what it takes or they are afraid what it would mean for them. So there is a way of mentoring without necessarily making it a formal kind of commitment and structure, but just letting other people see more what happens when women be businesses and just lift as you rise make sure that others not able to come in and I can get they can come and be able to do a better job than yourself.
Sue
Thank you, and I think it’s been very illuminating. Thank you all very much for taking part in this discussion. And I hope that this time next year some changes will have happened but at least we’ll be on the path to making a difference and making a difference for all of us and for business. Thank you.